Relic Gun vs Relic Bow.

It was once a hot discussion topics within the Ranger community. As far as I remember, there were mainly two types of people who argued back then, the ones who were upgrading Yoichinoyumi, and the ones who were upgrading Annihilator. It was pretty fun seeing how they tried to convince the others that their choice of weapon was the best, without taking into account that the interest of the others may be totally different. It was then all down to taste, i.e everyone walked out of the discussion room accepting that they chose to upgrade their choice of weapon because they liked to.

I think it is partially true. Anything in this game (bar Absolute Virtue) can be done without the help of Relic Weapon. The facts that someone possesses a Relic Weapon may only speed the fights up in some ways, or make life easier for some people. Instead of a 2hrs fight, you may get now a 1hr fight, for example. So unless you are sponsored by your LS totally, there is no reason that you should not upgrade the weapon of your choice. Be it Gun or Bow, it will eventually have some kind of uses that can be meaningful.

However, if we go really into details (well, many people are really picky, like me, so it can’t be helped! :D), then the analysis of Bow and Gun can be further enhanced technically.

First of all, what everyone tends to base their choice of upgrade on is the Weapon Skill and the added effect that the Weapon Skill gives. Coronach is a rather cool Weapon skill in the sense that it can erase all your hate, so you should not be worried about pulling hate and die. But given the advanced tanking system nowadays, where NIN/DRK, PLD/NIN, RDM/NIN can virtually hold hate forever (NIN/BRD before if you would like), and can steal hate back very quickly if someone accidentally pulls hate, Coronach kind of lose its shiny attribute. On the other hand, given SE patch (which many people claimed nerf ~_~), Namas Arrow will never really lose its attribute. The ranged accuracy given by the Weapon Skill is quite significant, it helps landing Barrage much more easily, and the weapon skill itself is almost 0 enmity.

Secondly, people will most likely base their choice of upgrade on the usefulness of the Weapon. I think, in this case, no one would argue against the facts that Bow will win, simply because it can be utilized by not only Ranger, but also Samurai, which makes it more valuable than the Gun.

Third and lastly, people will care about the actual damage of the Weapon, taking Relic weapon skill aside. Now, this is the funny part.

You can either use Annihilator to shoot, or use it to Kraken Club XP.

For the second part, it will just be a waste of money in many senses, because you don’t need Annihilator to be effective with Kraken Club XP. In facts, if your PT is good, Hellfire +1 will do just fine.

For the first part: considering Yoichinoyumi and Annihilator total delay and TP return

Yoichinoyumi + Kabura Arrows: Delay 524 + 90 = 614
TP : 14.5 + (614-530)*3.5/470 = 15.1

Annihilator + Silver Bullet: Delay 582 + 240 = 822
TP : 14.5 + (822-530)*3.5/470 = 16.7

It will take roughly 9 Annihilator shoots for Yoichinoyumi to shoot 10 times, w/o Rapid Shot etc: 582 x 9 = 5238 v.s 10 x 524 = 5240;

Total TP return on Annihilator would be 9 x 16.7 = 145.8 = 150.3, on Yoichinoyumi would be 15.1 x 10 = 151.

So TP return on both Annihilator and Yoichinoyumi would be the same in the long run, but Yoichinoyumi benefit from one extra shot than Annihilator – which will negate any extra damage than Annihilator may have from stronger shot.

Consider the damage per shot: Given the same gears, Annihilator + Silver Bullet has 9 more Base Damage than Yoichinoyumi + Kabura Arrows. Taking average pDiF to be 2, that is 18 damage more per shot, which accounts for 162 damage more per 9 shots. So if Yoichinoyumi can hit for higher than 162 per shot (which should be the case with pDiF = 2), then the Bow will actually do more damage than the Gun in the long run, with shooting only.

Considering Weapon Skill: Annihilator + Silver Bullet has 9 more Base Damage than Yoichinoyumi + Kabura Arrows. fSTR2 and pDiF should be the same for both Slug Shot and Sidewinders, since the mods on the Relic Weapons are the same, and we are considering a same character build.

Taking for example, my Mithra STR in WS mode is 115, AGI is 112:

  • Sidewinders: WSC = floor(floor(0.16 x 115 + 0.25 x 112)x0.83) = 38
  • Slugshots : WSC = floor(floor(0.3 x 112)) x 0.83) = 27

So Sidewinders’ WSC is 11 more than Slugshots’ WSC, which brings total Base Damage in WS mode of Yoichinoyumi to be actually higher by 2. Not considering damage penalty from distance, then Yoichinoyumi is supposed to do more damage than Annihilator in WS mode (which I found to be a bit true PTing with Bey – my Sidewinders were doing less, equal and more depending on distance I stand).

Also, fSTR2 cap on the gun is lower than the bow, since Yoichinoyumi is the highest ranked Ranged Weapon – rank 9, while Annihilator only has rank 5; this helps Yoichinoyumi achieves a better Weapon Skill damage in the case Delta STR is really high.


So …

What I have been thinking for a long time is that SE should increase the Base Damage on Annihilator like they did to Mandau. Taking everything into consideration, I chose Bow over Gun. Putting my preference aside (I am a Bow Ranger for life), nothing in Gun can outweigh the benefits you can receive from the Bow. The lack of damage, lack of usefulness, lack of elemental debuffs (Demon Arrows can be quite helpful for tank than you may have thought) make Gun less attractive than Bow. If you want high damage spike, go for Culverin, or even Hellfire +1 can do – It is only 5 base damage less than Annihilator, and arguably only 0.6 seconds more delay, and much cheaper.

However, if it is your preference to get a Gun, by no means you should hold yourself back. It is still a good weapon, and it is still a pride every Ranger would like to acquire. Even if the Gun is better than the Bow, I would still get the Bow. Not only because it is beautiful, but it is exactly what a Ranger should use. Being a Ranger (Hunter in Japanese) is being with your Bow, forever.

9 Responses to “Relic Gun vs Relic Bow.”

  1. Sumazi says:

    Guns make you badass. Bows are for sissies. Also, the fact that bow can do anywhere near as much damage as gun is ridiculous. Bullets will ALWAYS do more damage than a fucking arrow. Like, this really just goes to show how broken FFXI is. Shoot a big elephant with an arrow and let’s see how much it gets hurt. Shoot it with a shotgun and I’m sure it’ll go down faster lol.

  2. Ashiya says:

    I don’t know how real life is related to a game which is supposed to be a Fantasy game :/ It’s how the mechanism works. You can compare a gun 500 years ago with a bow, and it may make more sense.

  3. Jkun says:

    Wait, you mean, I’m not suppost to walk around town with a giant Scythe on my back? Or eat at my own life to deal damage to those nasty bullies at school, which stuffing my face full of sushi or steak every 30 mins when I get hungry?


  4. Ashiya says:

    You don’t do less damage than a puppet in real life!

  5. VZX says:

    I think the general view on gun vs bow is the natural damage power vs damage potential. You can easily pull higher number with gun with less HQ gear/food/debuff compared to bow’s. Bow’s 2ndary mod is what actually closing the gap of WS number between the 2 weapons.

    Simply said, if you have good STR setup, then you can pull the same number, if not higher, with bow. Otherwise, gun is probably the better choice.

    about fSTR2 cap is really hard to achieve on bow. Considering RNG has naturally have low STR (E rank) and limited STR gear compared to melee. It takes STR-VIT = 48 to reach fSTR cap and STR-VIT = 64 for yoichinoyumi.
    I found it rare that any RNG will shoot slugwinder at 50 STR or more. Also, usually, monster at merit PT have stats more than 70 (70 VIT,AGI, STR,etc) up to 80~. So RNG, esp. non-STR merited one need to work on their STR harder just to make their base STR+some STR gear = mob VIT.

  6. Ashiya says:

    That is very true :D I thought I should just throw it into there in case people scream again about Gun has higher damage cap per shot than bow! (remember there was one like that on Allakhazam XD).

    My natural base STR as /WAR with full 5/5STR is only 66, just about (or 1 less) than the typical merit mob like Greater Colibri. And without food like Red Curry, reaching 50+ STR without sacrificing some ranged accuracy is like sooooo hard to do ; ;

  7. Catori says:

    I rarely see race being considered in gun vs bow debate. One ws is based on str while other is based on agi + dex. has anyone done calculation based on each races’ str vs agi+dex? My assumption has always been elvaan rangers should go for bow while mithra and taru should go for gun, to gain most from ws damage.

    One thing about gun interest me is hate resetting to 0 after Chronoch, although I do not know if that is true. As mithran ranger with O bow, I have never been in xp party in last 12 months where I could fully go all out on damage. No tank that I have partied with has ever been able to keep up with hate. I’ve always had to hold back on damage and often sub nin.

    Does anyone know accuracy of chronoch? Slugshot/sidewinder miss more often on mamool when using rng attk food, it gets really annoying sometimes.

  8. Megido says:

    “But given the advanced tanking system nowadays, where NIN/DRK, PLD/NIN, RDM/NIN can virtually hold hate forever (NIN/BRD before if you would like), and can steal hate back very quickly if someone accidentally pulls hate, Coronach kind of lose its shiny attribute.”

    This is more a comment and not necessarily a fact. I’ve played with very good paladins in the past and hate is never a non-issue. You will have to sacrifice not being able to Sidewinder on occasion (if not altogether) in almost every event. I’m currently using a Hellfire +1 right now and our tank can occasionally have hate issues because damage emnity at some point will be higher than the emnity a paladin can attain.

    The damage lost (shot lost) due to pulling hate and having the alliance adjust to your spike completely outweighs any damage advantage of one weapon over another.

    Namas Arrow may be low in emnity, but the only emnity loss tool at your disposal is the gradual loss of hate by not firing/holding back.

    You rarely if ever have to hold back with Coronach. It’s for this reason the gun exceptional. It’s silly to think that hate is never an issue. Even with a NQ weapon, it is with a Ranger.

  9. Ashiya says:

    I haven’t checked my LS in a long time so I didn’t see your comment :D Let me come back to you a bit later, so I can recall what I wrote back then, but please bear in mind that I wrote this before Velocity Shot I think – it can contribute a lot to the hate of RNG.

    My LS no longer does much of king HNM, but more often than not, Rukenshin will be tanking on his SAM, and I usually don’t have to hold back with him tanking. Even on the occasion of a PLD tanking, I don’t usually have a lot of problems.

    In any case, I’ll come back to your comment a bit later – I’ll have to review what I wrote back then!

    Thanks for your comment!


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