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Copyright (c) the StarOnion, 2005-2017. I own everything else except for the TaruTarus.
I gotta say I don’t agree with your reasoning. You say “you think people would have used this exploit if they knew they could get banned” ~ this exploit worked in Nyzul, Salvage AND Sandworm, people were not only getting triple loot but also triple cells (to make runs easier), or triple money drops (alexandrite, Sandworm drops which are mostly all sellable). Obviously these people (the ones who took the most advantage and eventually got permabanned) figured they were doing something wrong, otherwise the people who were duping things wouldn’t have gone to such lengths to keep it undercover. SE has banned people from taking advantages of exploits in the past, no reason why this case should be different.
But there’s also those that got banned for tagging along…
They all knew there’s a possibility of getting banned (yes, doing something weird … obviously doesn’t feel right). But there are those that’s just tagging along =)
Also… the fact that “banning for exploits” wasn’t really something SE really do. They usually patch and move on… unless they are admitting it in chats. You know even the title of the thing says “Handling Misconduct”… I haven’t see that before in POL news.. so that’s what I mean… it didn’t seem like SE would take actions for exploit abusers until today.
I just feel sorry for those that’s tagging along. I’m pretty sure there are :3
Yea, but then again.. how many posts for “I didn’t know I was doing something wrong” versus people who realize it was an exploit and respect and accept the consequences for what they did… Sure, it could show someone did something bad, but in a lot of cases, they knew the risks, and they obviously took great care that SE wouldn’t find out ~ IF THEY THOUGH IT WAS OKAY< then why the need for secrecy?
Really?
I tend to agree with you–some sort of punishment was needed, but banning was over the top methinks.
And thanks for an explanation of how SE found who was using the glitch! I knew what the glitch was–getting duplicates of gear–but had no idea how that works or how SE went about figuring out who did it.
First off, thank you for the kind words. I expected to be laughed at pretty hard when this came out, but if anything, this experience has been met with nothing but uplifting comments and appreciation towards me. Sorry if this comment is too long, Maiev.
Anyways, my personal take on this is that we are all at the mercy of SE the instant we break any form of ToS, which for me and many others, is essentially the instant I log on due to windower usage. Forget smart marketing, it is their game and we’re just along for the ride. My only responsibility as someone that does break ToS, is to make sound judgment calls and predict what SE will not tolerate vs. what it will. Because SE does not communicate with players or even hint, this requires very sound judgment.
There are a great number of bugs in this game still active. I think readers would be surprised to realize have been and still are active methods of duping in FFXI. They are just not so widespread. The one that is still currently functioning I immediately knew not to use because I felt that SE would immediately ban anyone that used it because it involved both gil (which affects economy) and was somewhat complex. The salvage dupe bug was actually quite simple and many have done it on accident (at least the first half of the bug involving party buffs).
Using this bug was very bad judgment on my part, but in my opinion, not due to it being somehow ‘morally wrong’, but because I incorrectly judged SE’s response. I suppose this sounds like a half-***ed apology but this is truly how I feel. I will own up to whatever happens to me, I just really don’t believe in the moral high-house others take. Based on other reports on BG awhile back, if you participate in the ‘exploit’ and tell the GM, you can be jailed trying to be the boyscout. There is just no way to easily convey what you know without adding risk to your own account.
The term “exploit” gets brought up so many times on my blog. If there was a way you could search for this word in the comments I’ve received, you will see this word come up a lot. When I solo’d Apollyon NW, I was told my kite path, which tricks a bad AI to the point where you can get a 8 second cast off, was an exploit. When I solo’d Bhaflau Remnants, I was told deaggroing LBC was clearly an exploit and my kill was invalid (even got my own alla thread). When I was lucky enough to kill AV via the KC DRK cheese, I was told this was an exploit.
When I posted explanations of the previous AV kill methods, I was told they were exploits despite the fact they were found on complete accident, one of them after a mind-numbing 30 hour duel with AV by a LS on my server. The other was found by accident again, and was even debated to be the ‘true’ or ‘intended’ method given SE’s cryptic script when AV spawns (something about showing thy virtues). Some claimed that AV’s virtues were its pets and that killing them repeatedly would weaken it (which it did). Turns out, oops, exploit. Ninja patched with no warning or POL explanation. The recent PW kill even, many dismiss it as an exploit based kill because it involves logging off. As people involved in rigorous endgame, we may think some of these claims of exploitation are hilarious and unfounded, but remember, SE listens to premier sites who believe and start these claims, and any avid endgamer knows to avoid premier sites like the plague if you want the best information.
A very small population of players progress the metagame of FFXI. This is not a statement of arrogance, but a fact. What was arrogant on my part, as one of these players, was to believe that my judgment on what was a serious exploit or not would be considered or taken more seriously than the more casual player who just uses the information we learn, teach, and progress. The average player, especially on premier sites like Alla have spoken, and I am in the minority. Many others in the highest tier NM LSs or ‘pioneers’ of game mechanics and strategy may be or are gone now. There is an undeniable arrogance on our part for believing we were above the public outcry of the general playerbase.
This experience has been a humbling one. If I come back, I won’t completely avoid exploits (because the definition of it is so nebulous), but I will be more careful. Sometimes you have to take calculated risks in order to progress. Such is none more evident than on AV/PW. I thank you again for the kind words and can say sincerely, and humbly, that I am not above the playerbase, regardless of anything I have done in this game.
“But there’s also those that got banned for tagging along…”
In the US (dunno know about Canada laws), if you witness a crime because you’re with the people who committed the crime at the time and you DON’T report it, you’re considered guilty by association, and can be prosecuted and considered an accomplice to the crime.
Is that much different here? How many people that got banned “by association” went and reported the bug the moment they witnessed what was going on?
I’m pretty sure no one that got banned here is 100% innocent. I do agree, however, that it seems borderline ridiculous how SE handled this by just handing out bans left and right. Now, if some of those people had strikes against them on their account for whatever reason (MPK, harrassment, etc.), then yes, I can see a ban being handed out. Honestly though… you can’t tell me that these 400+ were all guilty of that? I agree that deleting ALL the Salvage gear AND ALEXANDRITE of the offending parties would have been a better, and possibly more reasonable solution here… but this is SE.
Now for the Sandworm dupers… I dunno. They’re guilty on two fronts with duping and then taking advantage of people through the economy. Maybe they should have gotten suspensions/bans for that (in addition to losing Salvage gear) but I dunno.
This whole thing is a holy disaster, which could have been avoided if ego-centric e-peen’ers had reported this bug AS SOON AS IT HAPPENED instead of covering it up and keeping it quiet to get epeen+1. Coulda, woulda, shoulda.
Well, according to Lordwafik, someone in his Salvage group actually _did_ report the bug to the GMs.
Their response?
“We know about it but aren’t doing anything for it since we’re too busy on our newer MMO.”
So then what?
@ Kaeko.
Again, thanks for dropping by. I’d thought Kaeko only surfs the BG forum but I guess I’m wrong. =)
I have to agree to the fact that… I myself would have also incorrectly judge SE’s response to this exploit. For the longest time, all the other exploit was just patch and move on (would only ban if it involves gil)… If I heard this exploit, I would be more than tempted to at least try it.
I’m a fan to a lot of stuff that SE don’t like… done all sorts of things in the past lol… and having the same personality as you (love to test and make progress… well I used to), I would probably be in the same hole as you now.
The word exploit reminds me of “3rd party programs”. It’s so horribly used by a lot of players. I’ve read your Apollyon NW solo, although it is a bad AI… I do not think it’s an exploit simply because maybe that WAS programmed in there… intended to be like that. A specific kitepath is also a kitepath… you are still taking damage, the monster still got all of its abilities, and you can take damage. I do not see a stupid AI walk path as an exploit.
The deaggroing LBC was part of the deaggroing mechanism of the game. Again, I do not think it’s an exploit.
Also, back in those days around 2003, BLM that magic burst on Fafnir would get amazingly amount of hate, and we all know logging off clears hate. How about the whole KC dark zerging. They capped haste on Rune Chopper for a reason… maybe they thought people were “exploiting” the weapon? What about blinking while you do JA so you can move around? (which a lot of people do). I’ve seen enough people blinking during Provoke on mobs, just so they can run and provoke. I guess most melee who blinks before the JA should be consider using an exploit (I don’t know if you’re exploiting or actually changing EQ for WS). So IMO the word exploit is really what SE think to which extent of abuses of their shitty PS2 Emulator of FFXI for PC is acceptable. Not what the playerbase thinks… because obviously some exploit are just straight up acceptable.
Regarding people giving you a hard time on your strat being an exploit, I remember when I released vids of soloing, I love people hitting on me for using distance plugin, saying it wasn’t legit enough… although everything is recorded to their face. It only tells me a lot of people just love to shit on your accomplishment. It makes them feel better when they are indifferent from you (who is someone that’s really awesome), or what you did didn’t count so you and whoever are now indifferent.
Regardless, most of us are violating the ToS everyday. Windower, in chat talking about illegal stuff, 3rd party, exploit.. I even wrote a whole guide on Windower macros (which is teaching people how to exploit it even more) but the idea is to really think what SE think it’s acceptable and what’s not. Like you said it’s a calculated risks. I have my own, you have your own, and you just happen to miss that calculation. It doesn’t make those that haven’t got the stick clean or innocent. Of course yours is harder to decide, because as a person who wants to be a pioneer in strat, you got to test shit out… and it puts your account at risks… when you try “weird” things.
But regardless, I’d still admire you at your achievements and contribution to the community. Although your AV strategy seems crazy to read (when I read it, I am like WTF face lol), but the fact that you try to move the game forward (the fact you’re sharing your findings too) is something that you should be pround of… bringing something fun to kill for everybody, and trying to progress in this game, whereas 99.9% of the player are just too lazy to do anything, wait for a strat to pop on BG, repeat and rinse.
Your enmity research was more exciting to read than Version Update Details. I remember getting a few IM’s on the same day asking if I’ve read your Enmity research. It was astonishing. I wish I had a Scholar (so I’d actually understand your findings). So I’d just like to say thanks for the contribution and really hope you really get a temp, because I.. and many others would like to see people like you who try to progress in this game and not sit kill Fafnir for another 4 years to get Ridills.
Good luck with your account. I feel you’d make it through this one! =)